Adam Kokesh: Our guest tonight is Dayna Martin, author, unschooling advocate, and a passionate supporter of self-directed learning. Her website, DaynaMartin.com, offers resources for those interested in taking their children out of traditional education systems and nurturing their natural learning process. Dayna, thank you for joining us!
Dayna Martin: Thanks for having me, Adam.
Adam: So how did you get started with unschooling?
Dayna: It’s an interesting story. I have four kids, none of whom have ever been to school. My oldest son is now almost 14. Shortly after his birth, the nurses in the hospital turned on the TV, and Columbine was unfolding live. It was the first thing I saw after becoming a mother.
Adam: Wow, that must have been intense.
Dayna: It was. Here I was holding my newborn, marveling at the miracle of life, while watching mothers lose their children in such a horrific way. It made me reflect deeply—not out of fear of violence, but from a children’s rights perspective. I wondered how many of those kids at Columbine didn’t even want to be at school that day, forced into a system that didn’t honor their individuality or choices. That moment planted the seed for unschooling.
Adam: So unschooling goes beyond homeschooling, right?
Dayna: Yes, it’s a huge leap beyond homeschooling. Traditional homeschooling often replicates school at home, with curriculums and schedules. Unschooling throws all of that out the window. It’s about rejecting the school model entirely and trusting children to learn naturally through life experiences and their interests.
Adam: But isn’t homeschooling at least a step forward? Kids are out of the unhealthy school environment, and parents have more control. What’s wrong with that?
Dayna: It is an improvement, but it still depends on the approach. If a parent simply replaces the school system with their own authoritarian structure, it doesn’t give the child freedom to explore their passions. Unschooling is about honoring the fact that not everyone is meant to learn the same things.
Adam: But don’t kids need to learn the basics—reading, writing, arithmetic?
Dayna: Of course, but those are tools to help them achieve what they want in life. Humans naturally want to learn these things when they’re meaningful to them. My kids learned to read, write, and do math as a natural side effect of living in a resource-rich environment. They weren’t forced to sit down with workbooks; they learned organically because they were curious.
Adam: Are your kids human-alien hybrids? Are you saying kids will just naturally learn if they’re interested?
Dayna: [Laughs] They’re 100% human, I promise! It’s amazing what kids can do when they’re trusted and supported. All children have this potential.
Adam: So you’re not trying to take us back to caveman days, are you?
Dayna: Not at all. In fact, schools are what’s outdated. When schools were first established, they were the only places where books and resources were available. But with the internet and modern technology, kids today have access to more knowledge than ever before. Schools are clinging to outdated methods while the world has moved forward.
Adam: So, how did we get stuck in this system of compulsory education and rigid structures?
Dayna: It boils down to control and compliance. Schools were designed to create obedient workers, not free thinkers. John Taylor Gatto, who wrote Dumbing Us Down, explains this beautifully. The system isn’t about learning; it’s about conformity and pleasing authority figures.
Adam: What about socialization? Isn’t school necessary for kids to develop social skills?
Dayna: That’s a common misconception. Schools isolate kids from real-world experiences by segregating them by age, which is completely unnatural. My kids interact with people of all ages, from toddlers to seniors. They learn from their community and develop meaningful relationships that go beyond the artificial environment of a classroom.
Adam: But what if your kids end up as social outcasts or lack basic life skills?
Dayna: It’s actually the opposite. Kids in traditional schools are kept in a bubble for 12 years, cut off from the real world. My kids are immersed in society every day. They’re happy, confident, and capable of navigating life.
Adam: You mentioned parenting earlier. How does unschooling affect your relationship with your kids?
Dayna: It transforms it. Unschooling is also about respectful parenting. My kids aren’t punished or forced to obey arbitrary rules. We live by principles, not rules. It’s about treating them with the same respect I’d show any adult or friend.
Adam: So you don’t have the stereotypical battles with your teenagers?
Dayna: None at all. My 13-year-old loves spending time with us. We support his interests and passions instead of trying to control him.
Adam: What’s your advice for parents considering unschooling?
Dayna: First, talk to your kids. Ask them what they want and really listen. Start researching and unlearning the conditioning that tells us education has to look a certain way. There are so many resources and communities out there to support you.
Adam: And for teens stuck in school who want this freedom?
Dayna: Read The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn. It’s an amazing resource. Teens can also reach out to me—I’d be happy to help them and their parents understand this path.
Adam: Dayna, this has been fascinating. Thank you for sharing your insights.
Dayna: Thank you, Adam. It’s been great to talk about this!